Audio:

Transcript:

Dr. Allen:

Dr. Hawkins, it is a joy to welcome you to the campus of Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary today. You have already served us richly by preaching to our chapel community. Thank you so much for your friendship and for being here and ministering God’s Word to us. It is a particular joy of mine to host you in the President’s home—the Vivion Home, in the Spurgeon Room where we are surrounded by some of C. H. Spurgeon’s books and artifacts. It is a special joy because I know of your appreciation for Spurgeon, and W. A. Criswell’s appreciation for Spurgeon, who was a mentor to you. Criswell is one that our denomination looked to for decades for leadership, but has now been gone to be with the Lord for a little over 10 years.

Today in the conversation, I want to revisit W. A. Criswell. I feel a certain stewardship, as a seminary president, to make sure the young men we train for pastoral ministry—for the preaching task—not only know the great preachers of today, but they know the great preachers of yesterday. It is really impossible to think of twentieth-century Southern Baptist life, and even twentieth-century life within the broader Evangelical Movement without thinking of W. A. Criswell.

It is a joy to have you here. You knew him like few others did. Let me begin the conversation by asking you, how did you come to know W. A. Criswell in the first place?

Dr. Hawkins:

My pastor that led me to Christ and Dr. Criswell were good friends. They were life-long friends. I actually came to know him very personally when I was in my 30s and I was pastor of First Baptist Ft. Lauderdale. The church had seen some spiritual success and growth. He took me under his wing and he became like a father to me. We vacationed together in the summers, Susan and I did with Dr. and Mrs. Criswell. We spent time in Europe with them; we spent time in New York. They were into antiques, which we were not, but we always enjoyed spending one week a year with them. For many, many years he was like a father to me.

Dr. Allen:

You had the opportunity to be one of his successors at First Baptist Dallas for about five years before going to your current post as president of GuideStone. Talk about Criswell, the preacher. There are many ways to think of him: Criswell the pastor; Criswell this Titanic figure, something of an institution in and of himself. But as I look at Criswell from a distance, I find it difficult to reduce him beyond the pulpit. That is, first and foremost, who he was. Talk about Criswell, the preacher.

Dr. Hawkins:

Sitting here, looking at this portrait of Spurgeon reminds me that he really had no real peer in his heyday. People today need to know that neither did Dr. Criswell—I am talking about in the prime of the ministry he received from the Lord. He was an unusual man. He was brilliant. He earned a Ph.D. from Southern when few people were doing that. I always thought if he had gone into politics, he would have definitely been a senator, probably president. If he had gone into law, he would have been a Supreme Court justice. If he had gone into business, he would have built a Fortune 500 company.

Fortunately, for us in the evangelical world, God called him into ministry. He was a preacher par excellence. He was a student of both of the languages. He could speak to you and talk to you on any subject, whether it be Greek mythology, history, anything. He had a brilliant mind, and yet, he preached a gospel that could be understood by everyone. Fortunately, he has left us a lot of books to remember this brilliance.

It seemed like every time, in Southern Baptist life at least, that there came a crisis moment, there would come a book from Dr. Criswell. I remember when the evolution issue became a big thing among some seminary professors in Southern Baptist life. Dr. Criswell wrote, Did Man Just Happen? When the Charismatic Movement began to take hold in Southern Baptist life, it was really charismania, and there came the book, The Holy Spirit in Today’s World. Even foreseeing the battle for the Bible that the Southern Baptists went through in the late 70s and 80s, Dr. Criswell gave us, Why I Preach the Bible as Literally True.

His books, his writings, and today, like Abel, being dead, still speaks through www.wacriswell.com, which has over 4,000 of his sermons. Unlike Spurgeon—we are here in the Spurgeon library—if we want to read Spurgeon, we can only do it linearly. We can only read what he wrote. On www.wacriswell.com, there are 4,000 of his manuscript messages alongside his handwritten notes, alongside audio, and alongside video. We not only get to read what he said, but we can hear and watch the pathos in his voice—the passion in his life—as he delivered his messages.

In answer to your question, he really had no peer. He was very respectful of his predecessor. Dr. George W. Truett was a life figure. It is hard for preachers today to believe the significance and platform that Truett had. You go to Dallas today and there is Truett Hospital, a part of Baylor Hospital. There is Truett Elementary School. There are edifices all over the city of Dallas named after this preacher of First Baptist, George W. Truett. He pastored there for 47½ years.

Criswell also was a bit taken with Dr. J. Frank Norris, who also was a graduate of Southern and the pastor of First Baptist Fort Worth. Many people do not know, but it was the largest church in the world in the 20s and 30s. He ran multiple thousands of people, Morris did. He was a fire-branded Fundamentalist. They both morphed into Criswell. Criswell came in 1944 to succeed Dr. Truett, just months after Truett’s death. He took the Fundamentalist, fire-brand passion and eschatology of Norris, coupled it with the statesmanship, polish, and being a builder of this instead of a tearer of things down that Truett had. He put both of them in a unique package that really changed evangelical thought in the world for those years.

Dr. Allen:

When you think about that run First Baptist Dallas had, basically for a century it had two pastors: George W. Truett and W. A. Criswell. To think of a multi-decade long pastorate, nearly a half-century pastorate for Truett, and depending on when you actually peg Dr. Criswell’s retirement date, perhaps even over a half-century.

Dr. Hawkins:

I say Truett was there 47½ and Criswell was there 50, but I am a little partial.

Dr. Allen:

There you have it. Talk about what kept him in that pulpit week after week, year after year, decade after decade, being faithful and preaching away.

Dr. Hawkins:

Number one, the man was like Nathanael—he was without guile. It never entered his mind that anyone would have an evil thought toward him or anything else. He was the purest-minded man I have ever known. He was passionately in love with the Lord Jesus Christ, and he loved the Word of God. He gave his morning—all of them—to the study of the text in Greek and in Hebrew, both of which he was proficient in. So much of his preaching issued out of that.

What other people do not realize, though, is that he was not just a great preacher, though he was. I will speak in a moment about what I think is the hinge on Southern Baptist life in the twentieth century that he preached. People know him as a great preacher, but few know that he was an unbelievable pastor. He loved his people. He visited them. He wept with them. He cried with them. And they knew he loved them. One of the reasons he had such incredible unanimity and 100 percent following and support in the church for decades was because they knew that he loved them.

A lot of people remember him, as you said, as a preacher and a lot of people remember him as a theologian, writer, or builder—Criswell College is named after him. I remember him in his pajamas on Saturday nights over on Swiss Avenue at the parsonage when I would go back in the back door. He would be in his study, and I would go over what I was going to preach the next Sunday and before I left we would kneel there at that couch, and he would put his hands on me and pray for me. I remember visiting hospitals with him. I remember him holding the hands of people dying— that he had pastored for decades—and standing there with tears streaming down his cheeks singing, “I Feel Like Traveling Home.” He was singing to people as they died, weeping. I remember him in restaurants. When we would get up to leave when we were finished eating, we would look around and he would be back thanking the busboy for serving him. He was a man of detail. He was a man who loved people, regardless of who they were or what walk of life they came from.

Dr. Allen:

That is very encouraging to hear the way he so channeled his heart for ministry, even to the least of these. Circling back around to his pulpit ministry, I know John MacArthur, whom we had on campus here recently, has referenced the fact that when he went to Grace Community Church in 1969, Criswell was one of the very few models of exposition out there that he could look to. In some ways, you think of Criswell channeling different tributaries, whether it is the Conservative Movement and Resurgence in our denomination, or more broadly speaking of the church at large. He was championing and modeling expository preaching. Talk about that style of preaching that he practiced and his convictions about it.

Dr. Hawkins:

He was doing this in a time that few people were. He was doing this in a time where some people were writing series of sermon books called Simple Sermons (Herschel Ford). Not taking anything away from Dr. Ford, but Dr. Criswell was far more into the Word of God. As you know, one of his most famous sermons was preached on a New Year’s Eve in Dallas, when he started preaching at 7 p.m. It became the book, The Scarlet Thread Through the Bible. He preached hours into the night, through the morning, tracing the scarlet thread from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21—all through the Word of God. He is known as a Bible preacher.

I suppose you would have to see the church from the inside to see the brilliance of this man because his genius was not only in the pulpit, though it was the strongest pulpit in twentieth-century America, in my opinion. His genius was also in organization and the way he led the church. For example, he was such a visionary. He changed Sunday school from what he would call a “vertical organization,” to a “horizontal organization.” First Baptist Dallas was the first Sunday school to age group itself on a horizontal level to reach more families. He caught onto family ministry before anybody else did. He built a building which had a bowling alley and gymnasium before any church ever had a gymnasium or bowling alley or anything to reach families.

Ironically, he was like Jesus in two particular ways. Jesus attracted women to him that served in ministry, and he attracted reprobates. Criswell did the same thing. He attracted both of those types of folks. God brought three women along that really built First Baptist Church along with W. A. Criswell. Minnie Slaughter Veal, whose father, Col. Slaughter, was the founder of Baylor Hospital, and many things in the early days in Dallas and he was a deacon at First Baptist. Minnie Slaughter Veal inherited much of his wealth, and to this day, the trust at First Baptist Dallas still funds choir mission trips and things like that.

There came a time when Dr. Criswell wanted to buy the First Christian Church, which became available across the street from the church to expand. The deacons voted him down, and he was sad about it. The next day, Ms. Veal called him—I am going back into the late 40s, early 50s—and she said, “Preacher, I hear you are sad,” and he told her what had happened. Before long, there was a “For Sale” sign on the Christian Church property. Dr. Criswell told her that he had a dream of building a family center over there with bowling alleys, gymnasiums, a parking garage, and things to reach families. Before anyone knew it, there started a demolition on the church property. After it had been bought, it was demolished. Then, steel started coming up out of the ground, and all of the sudden a big building about 10 stories high went up. It was finished, and Ms. Veal went over and handed him the keys to the Veal Building. That is how some of the things took place in Dallas.

Dr. Allen:

That is how you build a church.

Dr. Hawkins:

Then, Mary Crowley, who built a company called Home Interiors, was on Billy Graham’s board for years, and she came to know the Lord there in the church. She was a great benefactor to all of the ministers of the church. Then, from the Hunt family was Ruth Hunt. Those three good, godly women had tremendous wealth and used it for the cause of Christ to help build the church.

Dr. Allen:

That is a unique story and narrative for you to weave. Not only as rendering on history, but as one who has lived it himself as a pastor. There is a unique, providential confluence of a great man, uniquely gifted, incredibly devoted, personally sacrificial, in a city that is dynamic and growing within a broader region of resources, with different strong personalities and people with resources in the church. One, plus one, plus one, plus one, equals 10. These things come together in a unique way to expand the kingdom. As far as Dr. Criswell goes, it is hard to have a conversation about him without people sharing stories about some of his eccentricities. It is not uncommon for a uniquely gifted person and a great leader to have his own eccentricities, whether it is Winston Churchill, Ronald Reagan, or in the church realm, W. A. Criswell. Share some of the stories about Criswell which demonstrate his personal eccentricities.

Dr. Hawkins:

He definitely had them. I shared thousands of meals with him over 25 years. Then, when I was pastor, we would eat some meal together every day. I do not think I ever ate a meal with Dr. Criswell that he did not eat off of my plate, or anyone else’s plate that was there. What he would do is he would stare at your plate for a minute, and you knew he was coming. One Christmas, Susie gave him a fork that had a long extension on it. That was one of his more strange mannerisms. He had a lot of things like that. He did not eat chicken because when he was growing up, he ate so much chicken that he no longer could.

I think one of the most interesting vignettes is what happened shortly after he came to Dallas in 1944. There are three things that symbolized Dr. Criswell: his name was synonymous with the Bible, his books, and the blessed hope. He was a premillennialist. He loved eschatology until his dying day. He lived believing in the blessed hope. Truett did not preach expositionally. He had a great voice which carried him. He never gestured. He stood in the pulpit, read the text, and preached his sermon as a great, stately man. His voice and his presence carried the room. Criswell was running from one end of the platform to the other. He was expository, passionate, and fiery. He was a premillennialist and Truett was not.

Criswell had been there about a year, and he decided that they needed to change the Articles of Faith of the church. He wrote into the Articles of Faith a strong eschatological statement that related to premillennialism. When it was brought before the deacons, more than one of the deacons had concerns about Truett not believing that—you have to understand, in those days Truett was greatly revered. One of the deacons stood up and said, “Dr. Criswell, the great George W. Truett pastored 47½ years in this church, and he could not sign those Articles of Faith. Criswell looked at him, smiled, and said, “You are correct, he couldn’t, but he could now and he would now.” He had a winsome way about defusing circumstances and situations that went along like that.

If I had to pick one verse that I think epitomizes Criswell, it would be 2 Kings 23:25. It is said of the good king Josiah that before him there was not a king like him who loved the Lord with all of his heart, and after him did not arise one like him. To me, that is W. A. Criswell. I do not know of anyone before him who really had the complete package, who loved God, was so greatly used, was dynamic, and was such a brilliant theological mind and passionate evangelical heart. He went all over the world every summer on a mission trip for a month. He had a plane crash in the jungles of South America one time. He went to the out-of-the-way places to preach the gospel to hidden tribes. He loved lost people. He was brilliant in mind, he was passionate in heart, and he was benevolent in hand. There are hundreds of ministries that became Christ’s hand extended to those in the city of Dallas and far beyond it who had nothing and needed something.

Dr. Allen:

That is an appropriate place to wind down the conversation. You have spoken so insightfully into the man, and into the ministry. What a fitting person for us to remember and consider. Dr. Hawkins, would you like to tie up the conversation?

Dr. Hawkins:

I would just tie it up by saying this—all of us have read Oswald Chambers’ My Utmost for His Highest, that great devotional book. In there, Oswald Chambers says that giants dwindle into ordinary men when you really get to know them. I would say that Oswald Chambers never met W. A. Criswell.

Dr. Allen:

Wow. What a fitting way to end. You knew him well, and you can bear testimony to that assessment perhaps like few others. Thank you for your time. Thank you for the conversation. It is a joy to host you on campus, and a joy to reflect and celebrate the life and legacy of W. A. Criswell.

*Recorded in the Spurgeon Room on November 20, 2013

Audio: A Conversation with John MacArthur about Strange Fire

Transcript:

Dr. Allen:

Dr. MacArthur, it is a joy to host you in the Spurgeon Room on the campus of Midwestern Seminary in the President’s home. We are delighted to have you here for the Spurgeon Lectures, and you have already encouraged us through your preaching ministry this morning. I want to hop right into a conversation that is hot and that is on your mind, obviously, in recent weeks. You hosted—just a matter of days ago—the Strange Fire Conference at Grace Community Church. I want to revisit that and talk through it some. I would love to follow up on different aspects of that conference. I will make a confession on the front end of the conversation: I was genuinely surprised—maybe even shocked—by the level of interest that it generated. I was shocked because I have followed your ministry for a number of years, and you have been speaking about this issue to a greater or lesser degree for more than 40 years. So, I would love to know—now that we are a few days removed from the conference—were you surprised by the interest and even the intensity that the conference itself generated?

Dr. MacArthur:

I think to some degree we were surprised. The first day there were 127 nations live streaming that event, and there were 25,000 separate connects. We do not know how many people were behind that. That was the first day, and it got greater the second day and greater the third day. I do not know that I really expected that, but I did expect a bigger response than books I have written in the past, or emphases I’ve made on this in the past simply because the Reformed non-cessationists or the Reformed continuationists made space in the broad realm of Evangelicalism for the elements of the Charismatic Movement.

If you say prophecy continues, miracles continue, tongues continue, signs and wonders are still valid, then you have opened up a world of possibility. So, what has happened is, when I wrote Charismatic Chaos or the book called The Charismatics or addressed this in the past, it was contained. It was contained originally within classical Pentecostalism. Then it spread a little bit into the Second Wave, which is when the charismatic experience infiltrated the Roman Catholic Church and the mainline denominations. It was still outside Evangelicalism.

With the arrival of people like Wayne Grudem, who really did open the door when he did his dissertation on prophecy and talked about prophecy still existing as fallible prophecy. Then it was picked up by D. A. Carson, and it was picked up by John Piper and Sam Storms and other people like that. These are respected people that are really honored by all of us on some fronts. So, it has made space in Evangelicalism for this particular view. Now when you confront this view, you are not just targeting heterodox groups. You are hitting orthodox groups.

Dr. Allen:

Right.

Dr. MacArthur:

So, it is simply the breadth of the tolerance of that which created the response. There was no negative response particularly coming from classic Pentecostals, like the Four Square Assemblies. Most of the heat coming at us was coming from Evangelical continuationists.

Dr. Allen:

When you think about the movement as a whole—the Charismatic Movement, and the different strains of it—what particular strain, or strains, animates you the most about the harm they are doing to the church?

Dr. MacArthur:

That is a very good question. I think the more bizarre the aberration, the more disturbing it is.

I go back to where I was when I first wrote on this many, many years ago. I just find the possibility of continuing revelation very disturbing. I do not care what form it is in. You can say, “Well, it is not equal to Scripture; it could be fallible.” I just see that as a major problem. What you are now telling me—whether it is somebody listening for the voice of God; whether it is somebody writing a book, like Sarah Young, in which she is talking as if she is Jesus in the first person speaking to me—whatever form you are now adding to Scripture, to me it is very disturbing.

That, I think is the foundational issue. So, if you allow for anything beyond Scripture, then you have to ask, “By what criteria do we judge that this is truly the voice of God?” If there are not objective, fixed, divinely-revealed criteria for that, you cannot control the movement.

Dr. Allen:

Right. Absolutely. It calls into question, and really undermines, the whole logic of 2 Timothy 3:16–17, that Scripture has been given so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped, adequate for every good work.

Dr. MacArthur:

So, am I inadequate? From the perspective of the Charismatics, they would see me as inadequate because they think I do not have the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the classical one. In other words, if they are the old-line Pentecostals, they say speaking in tongues is the evidence of the baptism of the Spirit, and if I haven’t done it, then I do not have it.

From the continuationists’ viewpoint, I am not hearing God speak, so I am somehow locked in time to the past, and if I do not hear the voice of God, I am missing out on something.

In any case, yes, it stuffs me in the corner, apart from whatever the Holy Spirit may be doing or saying in the moment.

Dr. Allen:

The three books you have written, especially dealing with this issue, are The Charismatics—I guess that was in the mid 1970s—Charismatic Chaos, in the early 1990s—and now Strange Fire. How are those books different, or is Strange Fire in essence a reissuing of Charismatic Chaos?

Dr. MacArthur:

The Charismatics and Charismatic Chaos were somewhat similar. Strange Fire is completely different. The movement has demanded this. The closing chapter in Strange Fire is entitled, “An Open Letter to My Continuationists Friends,” and it addresses them. The opening chapters look at the current state of the movement.

It is far worse now than it was then in terms of the extreme kinds of behaviors, I think. You have to change the illustrations, but I think it has to be evaluated on a completely fresh and new basis. I think there are much more tightly, carefully argued sections on prophecy, tongues, healing, and the legitimacy of these gifts than what they were.

The historical argument is there, but maybe the major difference in the book—or one component that people would benefit from—Is the actual history of the movement. Where does it come from? You know the fruit by the root. The chapter on the history alone is frightening.

Then, the second chapter, that we have not done anything with in the past, is on the apostles. If the apostles ceased—If it is true that there are no more apostles or that there were 12 minus Judas, plus Mathias and Paul—then there is a dramatic change in the church and the gifting to the church. Since apostles are called “gifts” in Ephesians 4, if there are no apostles, then we know some gifts have ceased.

Dr. Allen:

Right.

Dr. MacArthur:

If the apostles ceased, then there is a cessation. If the apostles cease, then the signs and wonders of an apostle cease—so the whole argument of apostleship is important.

The other argument in this book—that I think is really critical—is that the continuationists are saying that prophecy exists, but it is not infallible. Then, it is not what biblical prophecy is. Tongues exists, but it is not language. Then, it is not what biblical tongues were. Healings exist, but they are not like the healings of Jesus. If that is true, then you are essentially a de facto cessationist because you just said these are not that. So what are they? You are a cessationist who has invented something that is not in the New Testament.

There is no such thing in the Bible as fallible prophecy from God. There is no such thing as gibberish, and there is no such thing as moderate, indiscernible healing. So whatever it is that you are calling prophecy, healing, and tongues is not that. What I am trying to do with these guys is say, “You cannot call yourself a continuationist, because by your own admission, it is not the same. So, what is it, and why are you inventing it?”

Dr. Allen:

More of a “hypothetical continuationist.”

Dr. MacArthur:

Yes. Why are you doing this? Who are you conceding this to? Do you feel it is necessary for you to have some supernatural, mystical phenomenon to confirm your faith? Are you deferring to your wife, who was raised in the Charismatic Movement or are you trying to find space in the big Evangelical picture, so you are giving this concession? I just do not understand why you would invent things—call them biblical names—when you know they are not the biblical reality.

That is the direction the book goes. Just a quick footnote to that: The kickback has been, “Oh, you are painting with a broad brush,” or “You have not acknowledged that there are good things that happen in the movement.” So far, we have not seen anything that argues the biblical points. Eventually, the book Strange Fire, the conference, and what was said there is going to have to be debated on the grounds of biblical interpretation. That is where we would like to force the issue.

Dr. Allen:

So, since you referenced the conference and some of the buzz and criticism that has come from it—just to ask a very direct question—Is there any edge you left sharp that you wish you would have rounded or anything you left unsaid, that in hindsight you wish you would have said, or any second guessing? Obviously, I know you are established theologically. I do not mean in that sense, but is there anything about it that, if you could redo it, you would do differently or not include?

Dr. MacArthur:

That is a really good question. You know as a preacher, you say what is in your notes, and then you say what comes into your head, right?

Dr. Allen:

Right.

Dr. MacArthur:

So, if you could go back to almost any sermon you preached and said it again another way, you would do that. Our dear, beloved Charles Spurgeon: people read his sermons, and most people do not realize that is not what he preached. That is, in some cases, hardly close to what he preached because he got those dictation notes from the people who took his notes. He got that stuff on Monday, and I have actual copies hanging in my office at home of his editing himself off of those transcripts.

So, sure, we would all do that. Here was the approach; this was a very serious issue. Misrepresenting the Holy Spirit, there is nothing more serious than that. Accusing the Holy Spirit of things that he would not have anything to do with is a serious issue. In all honesty, we wanted to push this thing to the limit. This was landing at the beach. This was D-Day.

Dr. Allen:

Right.

Dr. MacArthur:

We came with everything we had. Having done that, we wanted to see the response. Where is it going to come from? I told the guys it is going to come in two ways. They are going to say, “You are lumping us all together,” and they are going to say, “You have not affirmed the good things.”

So at that point we will blunt that point a bit and come back and say, “Look, I said this many times, so did everybody else.” There are Christians in the movement who are faithful pastors that love the Bible and are trying to do the best they can. There are moderate aspects of that movement, and there are extreme.

Dr. Allen:

Sure.

Dr. MacArthur:

They are all connected. So, the brush can be broad, but we do need to recognize that there are differences, and we do need to express gratitude for those who have taught the gospel and preached the gospel. As a result, people have been converted.

Now, as we establish where we are, we will begin to speak in that fashion. Then, we still have to get to the biblical argument.

Dr. Allen:

Sure.

Dr. MacArthur:

In a conversation I had with one of the leading continuationists, he said, “Well, what I need to do then is write a book in response.”

I said, “Exactly.”

Dr. Allen:

Very good. In your mind, do you have a working distinction between Charismatics and continuationists? Or do you see that as one category of terms that can be used interchangeably?

Dr. MacArthur:

I would just listen to what they call themselves. I do not know that I would openly call someone a Charismatic who does not take that label, and they are sort of wobbling on that. There are some who did call themselves Charismatics. We quote one in the book who is now wanting to call himself a continuationist because he wants to distance himself from all that [the word charismatic] means. I really do not mind the labels, but I do not want to throw labels around. “Charismatic,” I think, is a good term because it is a term that refers to those who think the gifts of grace are still fully operational. So, it is not a pejorative in any sense—and unless they disdain that term, which I have not heard anybody do that—I think you can call people Charismatics.

I think even the classics, who would be known as Pentecostals, would call themselves Charismatics in the sense that they are open to the continuation of the gifts.

Dr. Allen:

When you think about the global Charismatic movement, estimates of their number is about 500 million, so an incredible mass of people. They are nearly half the size of the Roman Catholic Church. And people, if they are on the American side of the conversation and that circle is the Evangelical side of the conversation, they tend to think of the nutty people, the fringe, as being the red herring. They think of the norm being the John Pipers, the Wayne Grudems, the Martyn Lloyd Joneses. If you do a global assessment, you realize, “No, really John Piper and Wayne Grudem are more the red herrings.”

Dr. MacArthur:

Yes, they are the fringe. All you have to do is turn on any Charismatic network. Just pick any one. You will see the same panoply of false teachers, prosperity gospel preachers, healers, health and wealth guys, and you will hear the same claims to healing. Somebody who wants to present himself as a news anchor kind of image like Pat Robertson is saying things that are just as nutty as some far out healer in a tent.

So, it is everywhere. I do not know that they would all want to be put in the same package, but as I said before, once you say that the Holy Spirit is talking—and you do not have any static, fixed way to evaluate that, to define that, or to say yes or no to that—you really cannot control the thing.

We have to defer to the default position which is this: we know that John Piper, Wayne Grudem, and people like that are not crazy. They are not nutty. They are not going to fall into those kinds of patterns. What they need to do, of course, is rise up and condemn those kinds of aberrations, and I would like to see more of that.

Dr. Allen:

Thank you. You have been so faithful as a prophetic voice to the church for so many years—whether it was the Lordship Controversy or the issues of creationism, gender roles, or your concerns about the Charismatic movement as you have spoken to for decades. So, thank you for your consistency, your faithfulness, and for being an Ephesians 4:15 man—speaking the truth in love, even when it is difficult, even when you are challenging your friends and your brothers.

Dr. MacArthur:

Well, thank you. For me it is about the truth. I have no desire to harm friends or lose friends in the process, but I am propelled by the truth. I really think that my friends are too; and as long as we can keep that conversation going and speak the truth in love, it can be beneficial and hopefully we can find our way to the unity that comes around the truth. As I said at the conference, it is better to be divided by the truth than united by error.

Dr. Allen:

That is right. Very well said. Well, thank you for revisiting Strange Fire with us, and for your book. Thank you for the gift of your book last night. I look forward to reading it in the days ahead.

Dr. MacArthur:

Thank you.

Dr. Allen: Dr. Page, welcome to the Spurgeon Room. We are here on the campus of Midwestern Seminary in the President’s home and seated in the Spurgeon Room, named that because of the Spurgeon desk and the Spurgeon Library and different pieces on display here. We have the opportunity to host different guests here and talk about issues facing the church, the Christian life, culture, and so many other things. It is a real joy to get to talk to you today, and we are going to talk about a topic that is obviously at the very center of your heart, and a topic from a book that pierced me in the center of my heart, and that is your book entitled, Melissa with the subtitle, A Father’s Lessons from a Daughter’s Suicide. Allow me to begin this conversation with my own personal story here.

I had requested the PDF of this book from your office some time ago—just before it hit the bookstands. I received the email, and it was one of the longest days for me as president of Midwestern Seminary. It was long in a good way. It was a very full day. It started well before dawn, then I had meetings all afternoon. We had a major dinner where we hosted several hundred guests on campus that began at 7 p.m. and ended about 9:30 p.m., and then my wife and I hosted a couple for about a two-hour interview after that. I got back to my home office about 11 p.m., and I was just spent. I was worn out. I was ready to hit the bed at the end of a long day, which was the end of many longs days. I sat down at my desk, and I opened my email. I was in my suit, had my coat on, had done nothing to relax myself, and I opened that email. I read that manuscript over the course of about an hour and a half, or two hours without ever moving. I never got out of my suit. I just sat there, and I thought it would be one page and it was another, and it just arrested my attention. It is as though the book reached out of the computer monitor, grabbed my lapels, and drew me in. I cried reading it, and I am not a crier—my wife will tell you. I had the full range of emotions as I read that book, and I sent you an email that night after reading it, as you may recall. I want to unpack this book a little bit and the story behind it; and obviously we tread on holy ground, so to speak, given your story here and your family’s. I want to talk about the book and the story there, and I want to unpack it some for those who would read and those who would hear, and for you to be able to speak not only of the book, but from your heart, and convey the message that you would want to convey.

Dr. Page: Thank you, Dr. Allen. I deeply appreciate being here with you, and thank you for approaching this subject and allowing me to speak a little bit about it. I will probably say some things that I have not said in other places because it is scripted differently. Obviously, I am sometimes interviewed by radio stations, and they usually ask the same questions. The book was, I will admit, that I probably began it out of a self-centered reason. I thought it might be cathartic in healing. And indeed, that is true. But I quickly moved past the self-centered part and realized that people need help. I had friends encouraging me to write it for the right reasons, and indeed, that morphed into a dual desire.

Number one, to help people who have gone through suicide with a family, a friend, a church member, but then also, as the book is clear, it is also a tool to be used by those who are considering suicide. I will tell you that since it came out in electronic form on May 1and print on June 1, I am trying to keep a record of the number of people who have written me to say, “That book was written for me.” I just heard from someone in Texas two days ago who said, “I am suicidal, and that book has kept me from making that terrible decision.” Well, that is why I wrote it. It was not an easy book to write.

I am a crier, by the way. I cry probably every day over something. Even a silly commercial on TV, I will cry, but I am still somewhat private. So the book was a little difficult because I felt like I put my soul out on display. Then it was even more difficult because, while I wanted to be honest and transparent about my daughter, and about her struggles, and about our family’s struggles, I did not want to dishonor her memory. So that was very difficult to know that balance and to keep that balance in place; to not go off one way or the other. There are books written that perhaps are not very transparent, and then maybe there are those that just tell too much. I did not want to dishonor my baby’s memory. And so, I also will say that it is a well-written book. I am not a good writer, but Laurence Kimbrough was a co-writer. For example, I said one time, “Melissa was 98 pounds of pure fire.” He wrote it and said, “Melissa was 98 pounds, and rarely did she give an afternoon off to a single pound.” The way he wrote it was just great. My thoughts, my content, but his beautiful writing style helped make it a book that is very readable, engaging actually. Maybe that is partly the story as well as the writing style, but I wrote this to help people and it is touching many, many, many lives. I had a man this morning in the airport—an airline worker in the airport in Jackson, Miss., who said, “Rev. Page, I am getting the book that you wrote.” Well, I do not know how he knew about that book, but he did. He said, “I need it.” I do not know why; I didn’t have time to talk to him about it. Many people are reading it, and the whole purpose is I want people to know that help and hope are found in Christ. You can get help through a counselor and through a doctor. You should. But help and hope are ultimately found in Jesus Christ. And so, hope is what I wanted. And my wife, Dayne, said, “I just want hope to shine forth in that book.”

Dr. Allen: And it does. And boy, you read that as a father of five, and as a man who has been in ministry for about 15 years, and I have dealt with this more around the edges—never with someone in my immediate family, never with someone in my distant family, insofar as I know. And with church members, it was more around the edges of the church, not someone in the heart of the congregation. But you read that, and one of the things I appreciate is your directness with some of the struggles throughout life. It is not done in a way to in any way understate or overstate that. There is just a beauty in the simplicity of that which pierces the heart. One of the things that you touch on thematically in the book, and I would love for you to flesh out, is that clearly you had a unique relationship with her. She was the source of unique challenges, but there was a unique joy there. I know there are parents who have kids, and maybe there is a child who brings unique challenges and makes you want to pull your hair out, but at the same time there are unique joys associated with that. Would you please speak to that balance?

Dr. Page: Well, thank you, Dr. Allen. I will say every parent knows that. You know, it reminds me of the old story of the child psychologist who started his practice and he had four theories about raising children, although he had no children. Several years later, he had four children and no theories. You know, every child is unique. Certainly your precious children all have their own look and their own personality, and my three daughters all did. They are all strong-willed children, but they are all unique; and Melissa, she was unique. I used to tell her, “Melissa, nobody loves you like your daddy, but nobody knows you like your daddy.” And it would frustrate the fire out of her. She would say, “I hate that you always know when I’m not doing something right. You just somehow seem to know it.” I would say, “Yes, I do honey. And you need to remember that daddy knows.” But she was a unique person: fiery, probably, and you know in our milieu. We have some strong-willed friends; she was the most strong-willed person I have ever met—so strong-willed that her sweet mother could not handle her much of her life. I am too, and I admit that. I am a very dominant personality, and I have asked the Lord to help mellow that. I think he has some. I remember when we were expecting our first child. This was in the day that, where we were, there were no sonograms or anything. We did not know if we had a little boy or a girl, but I prayed for a girl, and I said, “If I have a boy, and he is like I was, my sweet wife will not be able to handle him.” But he gave us a female that had my male dominance in me. She was strong. I would say to her, “Honey, you can be meaner than a junkyard dog, or sweeter than the sweetest angel in the world.” So, she was a person of great contrasts, and many are. So the challenges were great, but I love her so deeply, and I miss her so unspeakably.

Dr. Allen: Take the book and compress it for two types of people. One is those who are dealing with either a potential suicide, or an actual suicide of a loved one. What word of encouragement would you give to them?

Dr. Page: For those who are dealing with someone who is considering suicide, I would encourage them to understand, first of all, that that person makes their own decisions. You have to be very careful. This is what happens, Jason, in a suicide situation where it has happened. In those who have survived, divorce rates go through the absolute roof. Suicides of survivors go up dramatically. Relationships crumble. Why? Because often we begin to blame. First of all, we blame God. Well, God didn’t cause that suicide. Second of all, we blame other people. “If you would have been a better mother, she wouldn’t have done that.” “If you would have been a better daddy… If you would have been a better whatever…” So, we are prone to do that. Understand that that person made their decision, and, unfortunately, made the wrong decision. So you first of all recognize reality. You can help, and you should. You need to do everything you can. Have I ever felt like a failure because my daughter committed suicide? Oh yeah. It still happens sometimes, but in my more cogent, sane moments I realize that I did the best I could at the time. I really did. I really did, but was I a prefect father? No. So, we have to realize reality. That person, that boy that girl, can decide what they want to decide. There are many voices people listen to other than the voice of mom and daddy and other than the voice of the Lord.

So, I say to those who have a family member who is considering it, realize that reality. At the same time, get them the help they need. There is help available in most places in most ways. Often times, when someone is calling us and threatening suicide—see that is the unique thing, Melissa never threatened suicide. Ever. We worried about her in many ways because of many affectations and many behavior changes, but she never threatened suicide. Many, in fact, most do. So, take those seriously. Get the help they need. But if it has happened in your life, again, minister. Let me just say this to those who are ministering to them: if you are in a church and someone has committed suicide, and I did have to deal with several in my ministry of 35 years, avoid trite platitudes. “Oh, they are in a better place.” Well, they may be, but that is probably not the time to say that. So, in your ministry to grieving people, be very careful to do what they need most, and what they need most is a ministry of presence. They need a friend. They need a family member who will love them and say, “I am going to be with you.” The day my daughter died, I mean immediately, the word got out and I had life-long friends who came and stayed with me. I don’t remember much of what they said. They didn’t say much, but they were there for me. They were with me, and when I lowered her in the grave, two of my life-long friends stood by me. Two of my male friends, one a retired general, one a car dealer I led to Christ back 20 years ago in Augusta, Ga., they stood with me. I do not think they said a word. They did not need to. So, we need to understand how to minister to those who are hurting. There are ways to do that, and there are ways not to do that. So, I have tried again to keep pointing to that in the book.

Someone asked me one time in a radio interview, “Well, you are always talking about Christ. What do you say to people outside of the faith?” Well, I say the same thing I do to people in the faith: that Christ is the only ultimate source. You can get help from friends; you can get help from books, whatever. Ultimately, only in Christ are you going to find the peace that God gives. Let me say this: why do I think God allowed Melissa to do what she did? Melissa was never at peace, and I think he let it happen so she could finally be at peace. I know she knew him. She struggled with that. I think he allowed it in his permissive will that she might finally rest.

Dr. Allen: I want you to unpack the other question I was contemplating, but thank you for opening up your heart there. One of the questions I have gotten throughout the years in ministry, with shocking frequency, because I do not understand theologically or biblically why one would think this or even have to ask this, but can a saved person commit suicide? And the answer of course is yes. But that seems to be a pervasive notion in the church today, that a saved person cannot or would not do that. Speak to that for a moment.

Dr. Page: I would be glad to, Dr. Allen. I will tell you, and the vast majority of people that I have ever known, I have studied this. For some reason I studied it long ago. I studied historical instances of suicide. There are three major mass suicides that have occurred in our history. Masada, a place called Gomley that nobody knows about, where almost as many people committed suicide as Masada, and then of course Jonestown, Guyana. There are other smaller groups on some Japanese islands who committed suicide so as not to be taken captive. The vast majority of suicides with which we are familiar are people who have lost touch with reality. Mental or emotional struggle has reached such a horrible point that they are not thinking straight anymore. I do believe that believers can come to that point of oppression, or confusion, or depression so much so that they are not thinking straight. I believe the vast majority of people who commit suicide have reached that point, and I do not believe that our Lord would hold against them the pain that led them to that point. I do not believe that at all. In fact, Scripture teaches in Romans that nothing shall separate us from the love of God.

Dr. Allen: Right, in addition to that though, some people think that as they have this conversation, that you cannot go to heaven if you commit suicide because you are committing a sin that you cannot ask forgiveness for. That is a nonsensical understanding of sanctification or salvation. I mean, most every Christian alive will die with some unconfessed sin in their life.

Dr. Page: That is right, but there are some theologies out there that say it is a mortal sin. There are a few denominations whereby you can lose your salvation very easily, and if any sin happens in your life—thought or un-thought, spoken or unspoken—you can lose it and you better get saved again. It is almost a daily salvific journey and that is not scriptural. It is just not scriptural. It is a hurtful thing when someone has committed suicide within your family and someone brings that up. If you are not theologically grounded and have a biblical understanding, it can be deeply devastating. That is why I said some of things in the book to help you realize, quit listening to people and start listening to God. Go to the Word of God and study it. You know, I remember doing a funeral of a suicide victim in South Carolina, and the church was filled with people of faith and people not of faith, people of various groups, and they were confused. I even brought up those things that I just spoke about. I said, “Who told you that?” I held up the Bible and I said, “Listen to what the Bible says.” All of the sudden I remember people writing me; Jewish people, Muslim people, they were all there. They said, “We have never heard people speak honestly, ever.” Look to the Word. Quit listening to people and listen to God.

Dr. Allen: That is the word I would use to describe this book: so honest. Honest about your story, honest about Melissa’s story, honest about letting the Scripture speak. Say a word, as we would wrap this conversation up, to those who may be contemplating suicide.

Dr. Page: First of all, there are a lot more of those than we think. We are living in a day of epidemic suicide, Dr. Allen. The chief of Chaplains of the U.S. Army said during the height of the Afghanistan and the Iraqi war that we are losing more men to suicide than we are to combat, particularly in the last few months and years. We do not know why, but the level of the young women committing suicide is taking a dramatic leap. I heard recently that for the first time suicide has replaced automobile accidents of young adults as [the top] cause of death. It is epidemic. So, many are out there pondering suicide. Whatever the societal pressures, the cultural pressures that are out there, many are opting for suicide. So many are pondering it. And I say to them, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Come to Christ, listen to Christ. He can help you. There are God’s people who will help you. I am calling, as far as mental illness in general—specifically in deep depression—for churches to be places of help and hope. Don’t to sweep it under the rug; don’t act like it is something we cannot discuss, but talk about it, be honest, and deal with it. But please, call me. Call Dr. Allen. Call somebody. Call a pastor. Call somebody before you make this decision because, as I say in the book, you may not understand what you are going to leave behind. You may not know. You may think you are just getting out of a painful situation, but you have no idea what you are going to be doing to those who love you, and of the ongoing repercussions of what that will do. So please, give serious prayer and consideration to getting the help and hope that is in Christ and through God’s people.

Dr. Allen: Well, the book is a gift to the church, and a gift to humanity. Your book coupled with the much publicized tragedy with Rick Warren’s son has brought this to the forefront of the conversation in so many churches. I wish every seminary student would read this book; every father would read this book; every mother; because it is more than a story about a tragic death. It is a story about life, a story about parenthood, a story about struggling, and about loving one with struggles. Thank you for this book. May the Lord use it to increase and strengthen his kingdom. Thank you for the conversation.

Dr. Page: Thank you, Dr. Allen.